tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3664872774352256800.post6468986750697696263..comments2023-10-16T07:47:14.662-07:00Comments on Yooper's Trails: Pedaling Backward, Going Fowardyooperhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11297259993402713368noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3664872774352256800.post-72326695733131361202008-03-03T11:58:00.000-08:002008-03-03T11:58:00.000-08:00Sorry I'm getting in on this late. I used to be at...Sorry I'm getting in on this late. I used to be at TOD more, but I've tried to cut back my 'puter time.<BR/>There needs to be a lot more Wendell Berry and Charles Walters involved in these conversations. The current system is one of using energy to replace the 'drudgery' of work with oil and machines. Descent could be described as replacing the oil with the drudgery of work again. In other words, putting all those people who were taught that rural life was dead and they all had to go through high school and college and move to the Big City to Be Someone and Live the Easy Life. Now, we can call that the Queasy Life and go back to rural distributed living. AS for supporting 300 million people without oil, well that's possible, just unlikely. MODERN organic research at places like NewFarm (Rodale Institute) show that organic methods produce MORE food over the long term than conventional chemical farming, and with more development, this has a lot of potential to multiply, rather than decline, food supplies, as well as improving the nutrition of the foods. Urban agriculture is another hot area to keep your eye on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3664872774352256800.post-43488376829278423282008-01-26T21:15:00.000-08:002008-01-26T21:15:00.000-08:00Moreover FAR, who is to say we'll see this 1930's ...Moreover FAR, who is to say we'll see this 1930's energy level, return again with this civilization? This could happen hundreds or even thousands of years from now. Hang in there with me, and I'll show you exactly how this could happen. Perhaps, think of yet another curve in the very far future. Like you said,"History, after all, rhymes rather than repeats". Whoa, eh?yooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11297259993402713368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3664872774352256800.post-73729592406734652962008-01-26T20:58:00.000-08:002008-01-26T20:58:00.000-08:00As for your thoughts about when we reach the 1930'...As for your thoughts about when we reach the 1930's energy level, suppporting more people, that may be so. However, that can only happen IF decline is slow enough for people to adapt to even fewer resources as back in 1930.<BR/><BR/>Again, I would like to stress that back in 1930, that was perhaps the end of a former environment, the argricultural age. People back then were a lot better at keeping food in their mouth than what they are today. Most families back then did have small gardens to supplement what they got at the grocery. Just what percentage of the population does that today or can even do so if they wanted to? Furthermore, we can never go back to a 1930's like depression, without die-off in this country, the resources are just not there in supporting 300 million people, period.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps, after the die-off, this would be possible....I am refering to North America here.yooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11297259993402713368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3664872774352256800.post-50250798239192409332008-01-26T20:38:00.000-08:002008-01-26T20:38:00.000-08:00Hey FAR! Yes, I agree,completely about "reversibil...Hey FAR! Yes, I agree,completely about "reversibility" being a misnomer. History never repeats itself, thats a fact.<BR/><BR/>As you know, I've always enjoyed your ideas of alternative advances to better cope with life in decline.yooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11297259993402713368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3664872774352256800.post-25268792685852648712008-01-25T12:02:00.000-08:002008-01-25T12:02:00.000-08:00You covered a lot of ground with a fairly short ar...You covered a lot of ground with a fairly short article there. :-) My uncle Bill, who lives in SW MI near where I grew up, has a wood oven that his wife cooks on. I think here in the south, some people would move their oven onto the porch during the summer.<BR/><BR/>I strongly disagree with Staniford's analysis, based on my own observation with the in-laws' poultry operation. I didn't have time to write a proper rebuttal on TOD, but touched on it at Kunstler's yesterday and we've discussed it as well: rising fuel prices increase factory farm production costs, which are in turn passed on to people buying produce. Staniford missed an important point: fuel prices can drive the cost of factory food up to the point where it costs as much as higher-quality organic food, and people will buy the better stuff when there's no significant price difference.<BR/><BR/>I think "reversibility" is a misnomer. History, after all, rhymes rather than repeats. Even as we head back to the per-capita (fossil) energy levels of the 1930s, we have a lot of advances in alternate energy forms that weren't known in the '30s (one exception: wind power). Batteries are better now, and our electronic equipment (e.g. radio) is much more energy-efficient. Sustainable agriculture, or permaculture, is much better-understood than 70 years ago… to say nothing of health care. I think that even with 1930-level energy, we'll now be able to support more people more comfortably than we could in 1930.<BR/><BR/>I probably ought to flesh this out some more & put it on TFM.Larry Kollarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08317037795075278427noreply@blogger.com